HartleySan Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I wasn't sure the best place to post this, but considering this is the board I'm on the most, it seemed appropriate. For those of you who have made websites for clients, how do you go about giving them an estimate? I'm really not sure of the best approach, as I feel like if I'm too vague with the estimate, then the client will think I'm cheating them, whereas, if I go too specific and start using too much technical "mumbo-jumbo", then I will just confuse them. I found the following page, which seemed like an interesting technique: http://www.sitepoint.com/web-work-should-charge/ Anyway, I am really curious as to how to craft an estimate (how to break it up), and how to come up with a price for each part of the estimate/a total price? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Conte Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 It depends on the functionality required. I never quote less than 500-600 english pounds for a website with a CMS like TXP or Wordpress. It also depends on how complex the design process is, if it need any additional code, etc. Web developement takes time. Try to give them a perspective on that. It will make it easier for them to calculate the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartleySan Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Right, I agree. I think it's a matter of explaining what's really involved in it all so that the client can understand, right? Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I normally break it into general categories. So HTML design, which I farm out, is X. Then I expect the database design to take me, say, 4 hours, at $Y/hour, that's $4Y. Then there's the programming of the site, which is the largest bulk and the hardest to estimate. I guess how many days it would take me, add a couple, and multiple this out against my hourly. Remember that it always takes longer than you expect. Then there's testing and tweaking. Plan on a couple of days of that. After I use the general categories to come up with a total, I might tweak the numbers a bit if they don't feel right. Generally speaking, I think that database design is about 5% of the cost, testing and tweaking is 10-15%, HTML design is 20-30%, and PHP programming is the majority. Keep in mind that an estimate isn't just how much the client is spending, but what they're getting. Showing that backend programming is the biggest expense conveys that the client won't see all the work that goes into it. But you ought to consider itemizing the "features" they'll be buying, in some detail: user registration, login, shopping cart, etc. These are things that are meaningful to the client and shows them they are getting a lot, not just a Web site. It also protects you from them later saying "I thought the site would...". And finally, as part of the "sales" aspect, you may want to put in some buzzwords about standards and security and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I also find that looking at your competitors, or prices relevant to your area is worthwhile.If your region people/agencies charge $x for something and you charge $3x, it might be tough to gain interest from the average Google search person, looking to find a price for a project. It's all relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chop Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Once you really understand what the client wants, you can come up with an estimate as to the total number of hours it will take you to complete. Don't make the mistake of getting into a job in which you don't have a complete understanding as to its scope. Otherwise your hours estimate will be way off and you'll be faced with charging the client much more than the estimate or feeling like you were underpaid. So.... WRITE a document that explains exactly what you're going to do based on what the client has expressed they want verbally. Keep in mind that often even the client doesn't know exactly what he wants. So feel free to add in your own suggestions as you do a little market research of other similar sites. GIVE the document to the client. TALK to the client about all the aspects of it. REVISE it as you discuss it until you both have a solid, clear understanding of it. This will prevent other "things" from being thrown into the mix because the client thought they were included from the start. Big jobs often involve a lot of research of what is needed before anything can begin. IT IS OKAY to bill your client for this time but it should be done on an hourly bases and the bill should be separate from the bill for the website. The written document that you share with your client might be called a contract, a specification, or a proposal but it should be absolutely clear to both parties before you drive the first nail (including the time line). The exactness of it will make it easy for you to estimate your hours which can be multiplied by what you feel you need to make without you or the client feeling cheated. Make sure that you include any expenses you might incur such as purchase of images etc..This is most important. If the client likes this document then you send a bill for your time, you get paid, and everyone's happy. I would ask for a retainer of 50% due fairly early in the project in case you do lots of work and the client bails. How closely you follow this procedure depends on how big the project is. I have had people I know come to me wanting a simple one page site, plain vanilla, and know exactly what they want on it. They just want something for a web presence. I might say, okay, that will cost you $x so please send a check and it will be up in 2 days. Less time involved, less risk, less money so less need for paperwork. Think also about where you will host it and if you want to charge the client for annual hosting with a little added on for your occasional support. You can get a discount as a reseller on a host, say $50 and charge the client $99/year. good luck, chop 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Adding to what Chop said, I agree that doing research is important and can be billed to the client. I think this is another place where it's best to break the contract into pieces and to charge different rates for different things. I recently spoke with a local design team about creating a logo and business card for me. Their quote was $6,000 or $10,000 depending upon how much research they did. In no way was I going to spend anything close to that regardless, but I will say that although I see the benefits of research, it bothered me that they'd charge $185/hour (or thereabouts) for research. Similarly, if a project involves some data entry, I normally quote that at a lower rate. You should try to get a decent chunk of money early, but you have to be careful as that can scare customers off. You can also make the last payment relatively small, so you have most of the money even if the client doesn't pay the total amount. Or you could really protect yourself and create the site on your own server so that the client has nothing they can steal (backend-wise), should they bail. As for hosting, I've managed my client's hosting in the past and thought it was so smart of me and then grew to regret it. I think I had one client paying me $200/year to host the site, which covered my entire hosting costs for all my sites. Great, right? But if you're providing hosting then you need to do backups and manage security and really be available 24-7 if there's a problem. It's a lot of work that really only plays off if you're doing it for lots of sites. Also, in my experience, when I had problems with my server, that meant my own sites were down as were my clients, which was a double whammy. As you can tell, I wouldn't do hosting for clients any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartleySan Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 chop, that is all great advice! As I read your post, I kept thinking, "These really are axioms that apply to all business." I, unfortunately, am not the most experienced business man in the world, so it's kind of a learn-as-I-go thing. I just don't want to get cheated or make a big mistake along the way. I recently had my first (pseudo) client, and things went pretty well, but I definitely learned a lot from the experience. The problem was that the client was fairly inexperienced in Web-related stuff, so when I tried to explain the way I was going to structure the site with a database, etc., it all went over his head. I tried to keep things as simple as possible, but to little success. As a result, I made the mistake of being too general in my explanations up front. The client also (initially) let me loose, and pretty much left it up to me to make all the decisions regarding design. The client was happy with the initial design, but that happiness was then followed by a barrage of things like, "Could you please center this? And could you also apply Times New Roman? Oh, and could you change this style to this? Oh, I forgot. Could you please completely restructure this entire section you made because we don't actually have the time to generate that content?" Basically, the initial site was done in two weeks in my spare time, and then about a month was added on at the end taking care of all the particulars the client wanted. This, of course, also required a bajillion emails back and forth. I spoke with Matt on the boards extensively about this, and he mentioned that clients quite often don't even know what they want up front, but as soon as you show them something, they immediately know what they don't like. It's hard. Furthermore, my sensibilities and awareness of the Internet and how a page should look are completely different from the proverbial Web noob. But I digress. The point is, I don't want to repeat what happened the first time. And I think the key is to, like both you, chop, and Larry mentioned, to establish up front exactly what will be done and a timeline to get things done. And anything beyond that needs to be renegotiated and require a fee. Larry, I also like your idea of money up front, and keeping the site on your server until everything is settled. That way, you always have a bargaining chip. Well, I'll leave it at that for now, but I want to continue this discussion at a later time. Thank you all for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Pick up the Headfirst Web Design book, they have a great chapter on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HartleySan Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 Very cool. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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